Welcome back to our read of The Shadow Rising! This week, (Week 7!) we’re covering Chapters 7 and 8, in which Egwene tries to learn more about saidin, Elayne and Rand talk romantic feelings, and Mat is presented with an new option besides staying or running. And also the High Lords are annoying but that’s to be expected.
The next morning, Egwene and Elayne go to Rand’s room, Elayne dressed in a beautiful, low cut blue silk gown, and Egwene with a plain red scarf around her shoulders like a shawl. They are greeted by the Aiel Stone Dogs, and Egwene tells them that they have come to check on the Dragon’s wounds. Gaul, the leader of the Stone Dogs, tells them that Rand is in a bad mood, and literally threw High Lord Torean out of his room, earlier. Egwene is perplexed by the idea of Rand physically manhandling someone in such a way, and she wonders how much he has changed.
The room has been cleaned up from the night before although Egwene notes that it’s both messy and filled with gaudy furniture and decorations. They find Rand lounging in a chair with a book—he jumps to his feet ready to fight, then scowls when he sees who his visitors are.
Rand asks what they want, and is suspicious that the girls’ claims that they’ve come to help him are really attempts by Moiriane to manipulate and control him. Egwene reminds him of how long they’ve known each other, bringing up childhood memories. Rand falls into banter with her for a moment, but when they tell him they have come to help him with channeling, his suspicions about Moiriane return. He even tries to leave, saying he has to go talk to the High Lords and remind them that he, the Dragon Reborn, rules Tear now. But Elayne pleads that they only came because they care, and Rand reluctantly agrees to try, much to Egwene’s surprise.
She has Rand watch her while she embraces saidar. He reminds her that Moiraine has channeled around him many times and he has not seen or felt anything, but Egwene counters that she is much more powerful, that Moiraine “would be whimpering on the floor, or insensible,” if she tried to hold as much as Egwene is now. But when Egwene weaves Air, Water, and Spirit, the flows used for healing, and reaches out to touch Rand’s injured side, she recoils.
It seemed that all the darkness in the world rested there in Rand’s side, all the world’s evil in a festering sore only lightly covered by tender scar tissue. A thing like that would soak up Healing flows like drops of water on dry sand. How could he bear the pain? Why was he not weeping?
Rand, unaware of what Egwene has just sensed, tells them that all he can feel is goosebumps, and that is only because a woman channeling around him makes him nervous. Egwene tells Rand that she is releasing saidar, but when Elayne quietly embraces the One Power without telling him, Rand’s goosebumps return.
Emboldened by this small discovery, Egwene instructs Rand to “embrace saidin.” When neither she nor Elayne can sense anything, Egwene asks rand if he’s actually touching the True Source and receives a pinch on her backside from an unseen source. Egwene tells him off, that she expects that sort of childishness from Matt, and retaliates with a much harder pinch, making Rand shout and hobble about in pain. She tells him to do something with the Power, something not childish, so that she and Elayne can see if they can sense that.
Hunched, he glared at them. “Do something,” he muttered. “You had no call to—I’ll limp for—You want me to do something?”
To their surprise, both girls are both lifted into the air. Egwene can’t sense any flows of the Power, but she’s angered by Rand’s action and decides to cut him off from the Power, the way they have been doing for Joiya. But when she opens herself to saidar she finds a wall between herself and the Power, and realizes that she is caught and helpless while a man is channeling.
Rand asks if she likes it, as the fire in the hearth flares up, as a statue on the mantle begins to melt and the strands of silver and gold weave themselves into a cloth, as other items around the room begin to float or dance or burst into flame, including Rand’s feather mattress. “Do something” he repeats, and asks if Egwene has any idea what it is like to touch and hold saidin, to feel the madness seeping into him.
Abruptly all the mayhem ceases, and Egwene and Elayne are released. Egwene and Elayne clutch each other and immediately embrace saidar, ready to throw shields around Rand if he even appears to try to channel again.
Rand apologizes, telling them that sometimes saidin runs wild, isn’t there when he reaches for it, or does things he doesn’t expect. He tells them they should probably go, but Egwene replies gently that they aren’t finished yet. She is still angry with him, trying to be kind. She understands that he’s on edge, and she is on edge now as well, having just been shown how much stronger he is than she or Elayne. She reminds him that he agreed to try, and he reluctantly affirms that he did.
They sit in the undamaged chairs beside the window, and Rand promises to only do what they ask, this time. She asks him to describe the process of embracing the Source. Rand counters that it’s more like wrestling than embracing, but Egwene recognizes his description Tam’s flame-and-void concentration technique. Elayne and Egwene disagree about whether or not this sounds similar to what they do, but Rand also disagrees heartily with Egwene, once he hears her explanation of the process of embracing saidar. He tells Egwene that if he surrendered to saidin, even for a minute, that it would consume him. He does, however, experience the same powerful response of feeling more alive, of the world being clearer, sharper, and more real when one is connected to the Power.
They go on to talk about the various ways Rand just channeled, although Rand struggles to understand or explain much of what he did. He is able to describe pulling heat from one flame to start another, and Elayne and Egwene are startled by what Egwene finally sees as a concrete difference between the two types of channeling. Novices are instructed early never to draw heat in.
It was not a matter of strength, so Sheriam had said; heat once taken in could not be gotten rid of, not by the strongest woman ever to come out of the White Tower. Women had actually burst into flame themselves that way. Women had burst into flame. Egwene drew a ragged breath.
“What’s the matter?” Rand asked.
“I think you just proved the difference to me.” She sighed.
Egwene tells Rand that this doesn’t mean that they are giving up, and though he clearly doesn’t believe, he allows her to insist. When he suggests, appearing both relieved and disappointed, that they will be going now, Egwene brings up the other reason they wanted to talk to him.
“Rand, I cannot marry you.”
“I know,” he said.
She blinked. He was not taking it as hard as she expected. She told herself that was good. “I do not mean to hurt you—really, I don’t—but I do not want to marry you.”
“I understand, Egwene. I know what I am. No woman could—”
“You wool-brained idiot!” she snapped. “This had nothing to do with you channeling. I do not love you! At least, not in the way to want to marry you.”
Rand’s jaw dropped. “You don’t … love me?” He sounded as surprised as he looked. And hurt, too.
Egwene explains to him that people change, that her feelings have changed. She still loves him, like a brother or perhaps more than a brother, but not as someone she wants to marry. Rand give her a rueful grin and explains that he has also changed, that he’s relieved that she doesn’t want to marry him either, because he was worried about hurting her. Egwene is impressed with what she sees as his bravery, trying to convince her of this. She tells him he will find someone else, repeating it when he clearly doesn’t believe, and then departs, dropping both saidar and her scarf as soon as she is out of the room.
He was ready for Elayne to pick up like a lost puppy if she handled him the way they had discussed. She thought Elayne would manage him nicely, now and later. For as much later as they had. Something had to be done about his control. She was willing to admit that what she had been told was right—no woman could teach him; fish and birds—but that was not the same as giving up. Something had to be done, so a way had to be found. That horrible wound and the madness were problems for later, but they would be dealt with eventually. Somehow. Everyone said Two Rivers men were stubborn, but they could not match Two Rivers women.
Elayne sits and waits patiently, putting on an outward display of calm composure—though inside she is a nervous wreck—while Rand stares after Egwene, seemingly at a loss or perhaps arguing with her. When he realizes Elayne is still in the room he is flummoxed almost to speechlessness, and stumbles for formal language as he apologizes, calling her “my Lady.” Elayne threatens to call him “Lord Dragon” and curtsey unless he calls her by her name.
Rand does, and when Elayne asks if what Egwene said hurt very much, Rand admits that it did a little, but that he told her the truth about his own feelings, even though she didn’t seem to believe him. Elayne is relieved that she won’t have to contend with Rand trying to hold onto Egwene, and even though her nerves are urging her on, she keeps her composure and the conversation light.
Suddenly, Rand asks if she would like a flower, picking up a handful of feathers from the bed he destroyed earlier. Elayne realizes he means to make one with the power, and reminds herself that for them to work, she must trust him, and agrees. But after a few moments Rand declares that a flower is no fit gift for her, and Elayne can tell that he tried to touch saidin but couldn’t. He offers her the cloth of gold and silk that he made earlier when he was melting the statue, which Elayne diplomatically accepts, although she also gathers up the feathers he tried to change. Rand mistakes her actions for cleaning, not understanding that she wants to keep the feathers because he wanted them to be a flower for her.
Emboldened by his desire to give her a gift, Elayne clumsily asks Rand if he likes her, then clarifies by explaining that she is “more than fond” of him. She doesn’t want to remind him of Berelain, but she tells him that while she is not normally so forward, she knows that she will have to leave Tear soon and couldn’t go without telling him the truth of how she felt. Rand, red-faced and stammering, claims he doesn’t know what to say, and Elayne decides she won’t let Berelain better her, and, stepping close to Rand, asks him to kiss her.
“Kiss you?” he said as if he had never heard of kissing before. “Elayne, I don’t want to promise more than … . I mean, it isn’t as if we were betrothed. Not that I am suggesting we should be. It’s just that … . I am fond of you, Elayne. More than fond. I just do not want you to think I … .”
She had to laugh at him, with all his confused earnestness. “I do not know how things are done in the Two Rivers, but in Caemlyn you don’t wait until you are betrothed before kissing a girl. And it does not mean you must become betrothed, either. But perhaps you do not know how—” His arms went around her almost roughly, and his lips came down on hers. Her head spun; her toes tried to curl up in her slippers. Some time later—she was not certain how long—she realized she was leaning against his chest, knees trembling, trying to gulp air.
“Forgive me for interrupting you,” he said. She was glad to hear a touch of breathlessness in his voice. “I am just a backward shepherd from the Two Rivers.”
“You are uncouth,” she murmured against his shirt, “and you did not shave this morning, but I would not say you are backward.”
He tries to speak, but she tells him not to say anything he doesn’t mean with her whole heart. Reluctantly disentangling herself from his arms, she thinks of Berelain again, and determines to say something about it, albeit obliquely. She reminds Rand that there might be other company when she is gone, but while some women see men only as baubles to be worn and won, Elayne sees with her whole heart. Seeing alarm in his face, she diverts to another subject. He hasn’t told her to stay away from him because of how dangerous he is, and Elayne reminds him not to try. It is too late.
They talk about their earlier encounter, and Rand apologizes for frightening them and losing control, but not for the pinch. That he thinks is fair, given how the two of them were talking over him. In response, Elayne reaches out with saidar to sooth the injury she gave him.
Just then they are interrupted by Gaul, who announces the arrival of the High Lords, and Elayne excuses herself, embarrassed by what the Aielman might think of her. The High Lords move out of her way as she passes, bowing but not concealing their relief that she is leaving.
Looking back, she notes that Rand stands out amongst the High Lords, “like a stork among peacocks,” and yet there is something about his bearing that she recognizes. Rand, she realizes, is a man like Gareth Bryne, someone who could dominate a room in rags without anyone knowing his name. Rand hadn’t been like that when she first met him, but he is now, and while the High Lords might think they only bow to him because he bears the title of Dragon Reborn, Elayne knows that they feel it too
Elayne leaves, serene, despite the trials and search for the Black Ajah that lie in her future. This part, at least, is done, and she doesn’t have to be nervous about it anymore.
Rand stares at the closed doors after Elayne, shocked and wary that part of his dream of her has come true. The High Lords have difficulty getting his attention as he wonders how she could have been so serene and whether she and Egwene had planned the whole thing. But he does not think that women do that, any more than men, and decides that Elayne spoke up because she heard that he was free. Then he drags his attention back to High Lord Sunamon and the others, who are asking why he summoned them.
Rand tells them that he has summoned them to talk about taxes, and the High Lords are quick to offer him suggestions and explanations, telling him that lowering the taxes will cause riots when they are returned to their original rates, that he need have no fear of riots, as the Defenders have put them down before, that there are too many farmers as it is, because of the civil war in Cairhien, and there is too much grain and no one to sell it to.
Half of Rand’s mind is still busy wondering how much of their exchange Elayne and Egwene had planned, struggling with the hurt over Egwene’s change in feelings, and trying to sort out how he feels about Elayne. He likes her, but he likes Min just as much, and he’s spent most of his life pining after Egwene. Still, he tries to focus on the matter at hand, the High Lords who can’t understand the basic ideas of trading that Rand sees so clearly. He orders them to trade with Illian, and to pay Mayene in grain to hire their ships, and perhaps put together a treaty.
“We trade little with Illian, my Lord Dragon. They are vultures, and scum.” Tedosian sounded scandalized, and so did Meilan when he said, “We have always dealt with Mayene from strength, my Lord Dragon. Never with bent knee.”
Rand took a deep breath. The High Lords tensed. It always came to this. He always tried to reason with them, and it always failed. Thom said the High Lords had heads as hard as the Stone, and he was right. What do I feel for her? Dreaming about her. She’s certainly pretty. He was not sure if he meant Elayne or Min. Stop this! A kiss means no more than a kiss. Stop it! Putting women firmly out of his head, he set himself to telling these stone-brained fools what they were going to do. “First, you will cut taxes on farmers by three-quarters, and on everyone else by half. Don’t argue! Just do it! Second, you go to Berelain and ask—ask!—her price for hiring….”
The High Lords listened with false smiles and grinding teeth, but they listened.
Meanwhile, in the hall, Mat falls into step beside Egwene, who, struck by his uncharacteristic silence, asks if the night before was troubling him. He deflects, talking about playing cards, and complaining a little about Egwene always being busy with Elayne, who Mat finds snooty, or with Moiriane, or questioning Darkfriends. Egwene knows he is also unnerved because Egwene is Aes Sedai, or will be.
Eventually, however, she gets him to open up, and Mat admits that he needs advice. Egwene is surprised that he would come to her. He says that he is trying to decide what to do, and Egwene reminds him that he cannot run away.
“You think I don’t know that? I don’t think I could leave if Moiraine told me I could. Believe me, Egwene, I am not going anywhere. I just want to know what’s going to happen.” He gave a rough shake of his head, and his voice grew tighter. “What comes next? What’s in these holes in my memory? There are chunks of my life that aren’t even there; they don’t exist, as if they never happened! Why do I find myself spouting gibberish? People say it’s the Old Tongue, but it’s goose gabble to me. I want to know, Egwene. I have to know, before I go as crazy as Rand.”
“Rand is not crazy,” she said automatically. So Mat was not trying to run away. That was a pleasant surprise; he had not seemed to believe in responsibility. But there was pain and worry in his voice. Mat never worried, or never let anyone see it if he did. “I do not know the answers, Mat,” she said gently. “Perhaps Moiraine—”
Mat dismisses that idea at once, refusing to even consider it, although he wants to know if Egwene has learned anything in the Tower that might help. Because she is different, and she knows him.
In the end, she told him of the ter’angreal, the twisted doorway that held answers on its other side. It was the dangers she emphasized, the consequences of foolish questions, or those touching the Shadow, the dangers even Aes Sedai might not know. She was more than flattered that he had come to her, but he had to show a little sense. “You must remember this, Mat. Frivolous questions can get you killed, so if you do use it, you will have to be serious for a change. And you mustn’t ask any questions that touch the Shadow.”
Mat is incredulous, and dismissive, though Egwene tries to impress both the danger and the veracity of what she’s telling him. She also tells him, however, that he cannot go in without Moiriane’s permission. Mat counters that he’d be a fool to go in without or with Moiriane’s permission, and that no chance is better than this one. He says he’ll go back to playing cards, and promises Egwene again that he’s not going to run away.He’ll go back to playing cards, he supposes.
Before they part, Mat asks Egwene if she ever wishes that none of this had ever happened. She replies no, even with everything that has happened, and Mat agrees. He gets Egwene to promise not to tell Moiraine he was asking for help, and she agrees as long as he promises not to go near the ter’angreal.
“I promise.” He grinned. “I won’t go near that thing unless my life depends on it. I swear.” He finished with mock solemnity.
Egwene shook her head. However much everything else changed, Mat just never would.
Mat’s going to touch the thing, isn’t he?
I really enjoyed these chapters. The information about saidin and saidar has been coming in little bits and pieces, the reader learning about the One Power as the Emond’s Fielders do, but at this point in the story there is information that Egwene and Nynaeve learned in their training that hasn’t been included in the narration, so I appreciate getting a bit more caught up. And I’ve also wanted someone to poke at this claim that saidin and saidar are so very different that there is no overlap at all in the way they are used or taught.
Now, I’m sure that as the series continues the explanations for exactly what saidin and saidar are, and exactly how they work, will continue to become more intricate and sophisticated, and that what we’re looking at here in this chapter is still a very base level description compared to what is coming later. And I admit, it’s still a sticking point for me.
Waaay back in the very second post of this reread, I tackled the concept as it was explained then, comparing it to the dynamic of yin and yang from Chinese philosophy, the idea that these two equal opposites create the push/pull that moves the universe. Saidar and saidin create the push/pull that turns the Wheel of Time, spinning out the Pattern, driving Creation, and so saidin and saidar are presented as equal opposites. This makes sense, and it’s a functional world-building choice. But the complete embracing of the stereotypes of masculinity and femininity as it relates to these two coded forces isn’t. It’s not just that saidin embodies concepts normally assigned to masculinity (fire, roughness, strength) and saidar to femininity (water, delicacy, patience)—the very way that the two genders interact with the One Power is a stereotype. Women must surrender, open themselves up to saidar, a passive act in which they are literally described as being filled. Men must reach out and take what they want, they must be strong-willed and aggressive, and force saidin to their will, like breaking a wild horse.
When I was making my notes for this section, I found myself repeating a lot of what Emmet Asher-Perrin had to say about gendered power in their re-read of Dune, which makes sense, given the influence that book had on Jordan’s work. In one post, Emily made a point of remarking that Dune’s gender dynamics and politics are outdated by 70s era sci-fi standards. In Dune, men are said to be takers who cannot consider the “giving” part of themselves without changing into something other than men, and vice versa for women. The Kwisatz Haderach is supposed to be a man who has all the abilities of the female Bene Gesserit (by virtue of genetic breeding) but can “look into that place they cannot look” because he’s a man. Which makes no sense. Either the gender rules are true or they are not. If a man can be produced who can have both attributes, why not a woman? And if either is possible, then the gender division is not an absolute the way it is claimed.
This same idea applies to The Wheel of Time in a few ways. We do see examples of the stereotypes being untrue, such as Egwene’s strong affinity for Earth, and may continue to see exceptions to the “usual” divide in strength. I also wonder if we may discover other ways in which saidin and saidar are perhaps not entirely alien to each other. After all, there was a time when men and women worked together to channel, which means they at least developed some common language around the working of weaves. And the Five Powers seem to make up both saidin and saidar equally, despite the different genders’ affinities
As far as Rand is concerned, I remain convinced that it makes no sense for the Dragon to be always male. It would make more sense if the gender of the Dragon to alternate each time they are reborn, even more sense for the Dragon to be able to be able to wield both saidin and saidar, Avatar style, and possibly be a genderqueer or bi-gender person as a result (full disclosure, that was Emily’s idea first, and it’s brilliant).
And sure, we’re just now getting to a point where these are words used (somewhat) frequently in society, but as Emily also pointed out, the very job of science-fiction and fantasy it to be flexible, forward-looking, and creative. Although that doesn’t always play out in reality, so if you don’t want to start bending gender quite yet, another possibility would be that there are two reincarnated saviors, one male and one female. They could be the Dragon and the Phoenix, or something.
And while me suggesting a bunch of concept changes for a story that is already completed seems a little silly, I think that they kind of prove my point. If you actually think about what a gender-binary power system does, world-building wise, it gets pretty woolly pretty quickly. Far better to make your yin-and-yang, your saidar-and-saidin, merely accidents of birth, unrelated to gender, status, or race. If you want saidin and saidar affinities to be based on personality types, you can do that without invoking gender, or rather, biological sex.
Now, I am certainly not the first to comment on the gender dynamics of The Wheel of Time, and I am sure that these themes, including the way that the taint on saidin has resulted in a slightly female-dominated society, have been addressed in depth. But I am struck by this concept that men are considered dangerous because of the taint on sadin, when in fact everything about male channeling is described as being dangerous, aggressive, and menacing. What Rand did to Egwene and Elayne was exacerbated by him being an inexperienced channeler—this is not the first time he has accidentally taken hold of too much saidin and had to vent it somehow—but it is also the result of him lashing out in anger and frustration. While Egwene and Elayne were a bit haughty and dismissive of Rand, talking over him to each other as though he couldn’t understand, he was violent and angry. His reaction didn’t scare them because of the taint, not entirely, and I will be disappointed if that is not thoughtfully addressed in the book.
In our world, the stereotypes of men as aggressive, violent in their anger, and unable to control certain “masculine” urges are deep rooted, but we as a society are beginning to root them out. We are considering the fact that men are socialized to be angry, encouraged towards certain types of violence, certain types of entitlement, while shamed from and denied other types of emotional release, including fear, grief, and vulnerability. And Rand certainly has reason to feel scared and vulnerable, reason for grief, too. But saidin being what it is, we are led back to blaming it for his problems. It’s just too violent and too powerful, and yes he has no one to teach or help him, but we’ve never seen a female channeler in a similar position. She might burst into flame from trying to hold the heat of a candle, but would she ever lash out in such a way and then blame the overwhelming power of saidar for it? There’s nothing in this story so far to say that she would.
And as far as vulnerability goes? Opening, surrendering, and holding a power within yourself is much more vulnerable that reaching out and bending something to your will, even if the later course seems more physically dangerous.
Now, if these problems with saidin were due to the taint, that would be different. An examination of male anger and violence as being brought on by a supernatural force, rather than a societal one, would be fascinating. The narrative could ask questions of what a male channeler was responsible for, and when he is helpless in the face of the taint. I for one am much more interested in watching a protagonist wrestle with the concrete force of violence and anger being thrust upon him than I am in waiting to see him become overtaken with a non-specific “taint madness.”
However, I did say that I enjoyed these chapters, and that remains true! Despite my problems with the concepts of saidar and saidin, I’m still eager to learn more about them, how they work, what can be done with them, and how our characters relate to their ever-evolving skill set. I was particularly interested in Egwene’s perspective; we’ve been told before how powerful she is, but this is the first time we’ve seen her declare it, and in such powerful and uncertain terms. Removed from her power-struggle arguments with Nynaeve (which makes them both seem a bit juvenile) Egwene’s confidence in her abilities is actually quite impressive, as it is whenever we see her in tel’aran’rhiod. I actually gasped a little when she claimed that she was holding an amount of power that would have Moiraine sobbing on the floor, or insensible. Egwene may be far from having Moiraine’s skill set, but I didn’t know she had progressed to the point of being able to tell the difference between her power and that of other Aes Sedai.
Egwene is growing up, and although I thought her handling of Rand in their “break-up” was pretty silly, overall she comes across as much more composed and Aes Sedai-like than she did even in the last book. I think taking on more and more responsibility is driving this change as much as her developing skill is, and I wonder how much she sees it. She is feeling pretty overwhelmed, after all, wishing for Moiraine’s ability to cow Joiya and Elayne’s noble bearing in front of the Aiel guards.
She was acting very Aes Sedai-like during her attempt to help Rand with channeling, too, and I don’t blame him for his irritation. Granted, some of this might be a more general gender-dynamic problem; perhaps this is how she always would have handled men, even in the Two Rivers. I also don’t believe that she is going to give up trying to figure out ways to help Rand. She may even succeed, in some unexpected way. I think her determination and unwillingness to accept what she is told will serve her well in the future, as it will all of the Emond’s Fielders, and probably Elayne too.
Both Elayne and Egwene note the changes that have occurred in Rand. Egwene thinks of how he looks and moves a bit more like Lan and a bit more like the Aiel, which shows how much Rand is relying on those influences to guide and shape him. I suppose it makes sense, but it also shows how he is turning away from Moiraine and the female influences in his development, and towards male ones (although the Maidens are an exception to this). Elayne notes his commanding nature, visible to her because of her experience with strong male leaders in her mother’s court. I was struck by her observation that he looked like “a stork among peacocks” when surrounded by the High Lords—it’s a humorous observation based on his height and youthful awkwardness, but I can’t help but think about how short a leap it is from stork to heron (they aren’t the same family but share many similarities and are easily mixed up by people), which gives the image a bit of a different meaning. There is a hidden danger to Rand, as well as a commanding nature, and the High Lords are too foolish to recognize either. Moiraine has her very justifiable concerns, but I think the High Lords will underestimate Rand at their peril.
Rand is also remarkably cute here, when he’s not destroying everything or sulking. His awkward attempts to give Elayne a gift are very sweet (and a little sad) and I was touched by the notion that he made a flower for the majhere, probably because he felt awkward and embarrassed about the destruction of his room. It’s these moments, I think, where we get to see the real Rand. People like to remind him that he’s just a shepherd, but I don’t think the true juxtaposition is shepherd vs Dragon, ignorant peasant vs haughty lord. The true difference is Rand acting under responsibility, being what the world demands of him, verses Rand being just himself.
When Rand states that he rules Tear, Egwene things of “a boy with a lamb nestled inside his coat, proud as a rooster because he had driven off the wolf that tried to take it.” For her, that’s a reminder that he’s a shepherd, not a king, but I think that the shepherd who drove off that wolf was acting under responsibility and duty too. Cuddling the lamb afterwards and showing it off, thought, that’s all Rand.
And so is the flower thing. One of the most realistic bits of the entire section is Elayne saving the feathers as a reminder of him trying to do something for her, and Rand not understanding it. That, to me, is the epitome of young love, while some of the conversations, the “handling” of Rand by Egwene and Elayne, feel clumsy and sexist.
And as much as I have complained about some of the relationships feeling a bit underdeveloped or shoe-horned in, I gotta say… that kiss was hot. So, yeah, getting more on board with that ship!
I did enjoy Rand’s perspective on taxes and the handling of Tear’s affairs. It’s common in these types of stories to throw a highlight on how ill-equipped the chosen one is to suddenly be elevated from normal to a ruler or leader, as I know we will see for Rand often. But there is value to his experiences too, especially here in this intensely class-stratified society, and it’s nice to see him thinking of the High Lords as idiots who don’t know where their food comes from. It makes perfect sense.
And then there’s Mat. Sweet, sweet Mat who can only sit still for so long. His prejudices aside, it goes against his nature to sit still for too long, and being held against his will by the Pattern has got to chafe, even without his fear of Rand, of Moiraine, and of the looming evil-bubbles driving him harder. And there is still the question of his tie to his past life and the way it keeps prodding into his present with snatches of the Old Tongue. I can’t blame him for wanting answers, and of all of the Emond’s Fielders, he has the fewest right now—even Perrin knows the basics of his condition, even if there are a lot of unknowns as to where it comes from or what his future holds. So yeah, I remarked last week that somebody was going to be going through Chekhov’s ter’angreal soon, and I am quite confident that it is going to be Mat.
Two more chapters (9 and 10) next week, and some danger and action coming our way. I’m going to go read them right now!
Sylas K Barrett is a sucker for romance, as much as he tries to deny it.
I’ve often wondered if Elayne and Egwene would have been able to help Rand to some extent if they’d known how to link with him at this point.
In the classic Yin/Yang symbol there is a spot of darkness in the light and a spot of light in the darkness showing that the powers though opposite also interpenetrate. But that’s not the way RJ chose to go with saidar/saidin and though we don’t agree we have to accept that.
Egwene remains determined to find a way to help Rand whatever anybody says which is touching. Both she and Elayne tell Rand exactly how they feel about him in an example of clear communication that we will learn is all too rare in Randland. Rand, bless the boy, has grasped that he loves Elayne and must let Egwene go but why does he keep dreaming about Min?
Mat is understandably creeped out and desperate for some answers. He won’t like the ones he gets.
Wow, it seems to me that Sylas has a very sexist view of what happened between Rand and the girls. Rand was teasing the girls when he gave a soft pinch to their bottoms. Elayne responded with what appeared to be a very painful response; it was not playful. Rand responded with justified anger and got out of control. He did not hurt the girls in any way, but they hurt him.
I also think Sylas has forgotten Nynaeve’s response to Siuan’s “training” on the way to the White Tower in TGH. She lost her temper and slammed Siuan against the wall with air – a much more violent response than Rand. Nynaeve also lost control and caught blankets on fire. And remember that Rand is much stronger than Nynaeve is and could have done major damage – I thought he controlled himself very well.
I feel he’s sort of gone the wrong way a little with the differences between Saidin and Saidar. Yes, Saidin is more violent, but it is the violence of a sea in a storm not human violence with malicious intent. It doesn’t necessarily mean that wielding it is an indicator of a propensity for violence. It is the Taint that causes this, and even then it is not always the way that taint madness is manifested.
Here we go on the Egwene being shocked that Rand is acting humble and nice, despite the fact that she’s known him his whole life and he has so far been portrayed as having been a kind and humble person the entirety of his childhood. It’s like she expected him to become a smug, self-aggrandizing bastard as soon as he got a bit of power (like she did), and is surprised he’s still a good person at the core.
I always found this series to be traditionally sexist.
@@@@@4. Maahn – “Here we go on the Egwene being shocked that Rand is acting humble and nice”
I think this is a Two Rivers thing. Egwene and Nynaeve are very commanding and demanding in their relationships with men and for that matter even women. They don’t seem to understand how to explain and ask nicely. Thus they expect stubbornness from men who do not like to be bullied. Thus Egwene is surprised when a polite, diplomatic request is answered the same way. Egwene has never tried that and really never learns how!
On romantic relationships in WOT in general, most of them are dominated by the woman and most of any abuse we see is from the woman. Studies show that in marital relationships in the US, women more frequently physically abuse men than the opposite, but men do more damage when they do abuse. Studies also show that men and women get angry about equal. Sylas seems to be promoting the false stereotypes of men’s anger and abuse, and complaining of the true stereotype that men are generally stronger than women.
I wonder what Sylas will think of the Age of Legends flashback where they were trying to find a source of power that both sexes could use.
This chapter is important in establishing Rands need for a male channeler to teach him.
The in world rules of the universe require the Dragon to be male in that we will later learn that:
1. Whether you can use Saidar or saidan is tied to the soul not the body.
2. Male souls in female bodies and vice versa are not naturally occurring (within the world of the story)
@8:
I think it won’t go over well that the search for that unified power is the WoT equivalent of Original Sin. Not at all, lol.
@Moderators, this post has several instances where it switches from commentary to quote and a few of them are missing the quote-styling.
For example, the paragraph that starts with “He was ready for Elayne to pick up like a lost puppy if she handled him the way they had discussed.”
I’ve had this open for awhile so I bet there’s a million comments now :)
I actually forgot how sweet their first kiss was. I also am a sucker for romance :) The relationships in general do get short shrift at times, but this moment – and the attempted flower – are very sweet. And it’s a callforward to something else that I had forgotten was actually a callback :)
I’m not sure I have it in me to wade into the saidar/saidin debate and the implications of that (or of channeling both, or the True Source, which, if I recall, is almost agender instead of bi-gender). I honestly don’t know if it helps you to think about it this way, or if it is just annoying to do so, but it may be best to just accept it as an alternate world where gender and biological sex ARE in fact much more tightly tethered to each other. (That said, I don’t disagree with you about all the surrender/aggression stereotyping going on here and how it gets tiresome at times). The idea of different genders for the Dragon IS a really interesting one though. I wonder what Jordan would say nowadays about it, or if there is anything he would think about differently.
@@.-@ I think Silas here is spot on with his description of Saidin and masculinity. While Saidin might be a violent sea, the words describing it are domineering. To control saidin you must subjugate and fight it all the time instead of surrendering as to saidar. That’s the words most often describing “classic” traits of masculinity and femininity. How about using “going with the flow” of saidar and “avoiding waives” for saidin? As for taints, it takes different forms for every man and you can have “mind of a child” with no angry impulses type madness too. Its described as nauseating oily slick (aka pollution) on top of sea of saidin. Rand’s madness takes form of toxic masculinity, that’s true. But most of Black Tower followers are taught anger and violence as means of control not a part of madness. Anger is taught to make channelers as natural occurence of their training where they are taught to completely suppress their emotions to control saidin, till it violently explodes, just like with boys in our words, instead of healthily experiencing them.
The first Elayne should be Egwene.
@13: Updated, thanks!
@10: We’ve read through and reformatted the section you mention; if there are other specific bits that should be in block quotes, let us know–thanks!
I think the way that Rand lashes out is not due to masculinity or to the Taint – it is the result of his trying to channel without proper training. Women don’t often have this issue in WoT, since they rarely go untrained.
It always bothered me that when we do see linking between men and women that the person leading is able to use both saidar and saidin easily. It seems like it would be much harder to handle both, but after the initial surrender/battle it actually seems easier and that the one automatically support the other and makes it stronger without effort. It would have been nice to get an actual in world discussion on it by some Browns or Whites, but instead it just works with almost no thought on it.
The strong implication I got is not that saidin is inherently more violent (though the process of controlling saidin is more aggressive than that of saidar). What happened is that Rand, who is incredibly inexperienced even by Elayne and Egwene’s standards, touched the Source but couldn’t make it do what he wanted. But he was still holding all that power and it needed an outlet, so he channel instinctively.
It’s all very well and good to say that Rand is acting like an angry bully, but lets not forget that he’s struggling internally. Anyone who has every seen someone who has experienced major physical trauma fail at a simple task they could have completed easily before their injury can see the parallel. In one of his rare moments actually touching the Source when he wants, he then can’t manipulate it to do what he envisions. That would be incredibly frustrating. So it’s not surprising that he’s angry, and he’s not well-trained or experienced enough to know how to safely vent all the Power he’s holding. It’s strongly implied that plenty of folks born with the spark end up killing themselves in exactly this manner, or otherwise burning themselves out by not venting that excess Power.
Anyway, I just think we see this scene through the lens of Egwene, who is often predisposed to view her male friends in the worst, most stereotypical possible light, and she (very typically) doesn’t understand the emotional reaction others might have. I mean, she’s completely oblivious to her infantalizing treatment of Rand, and when he pinches her, responds with what must be the equivalent of a massive beating. I mean, she’s almost in tears at the pain from the wound in Rand’s side, which he doesn’t even register, but her retaliation her leaves him hobbling? One of the many reasons Egwene is among my least favorite characters is here unbelievable capacity to treat everyone around her like a moron or a bully, usually exactly at the moments she is combining stupidity and violence or the threat of it.
I really am enjoying the analysis by Sylas but I think he needs to pick the pace up A LOT. 2 chapter a week? That’ll be about 30 weeks to do this whole book from start to finish (which is well over half a year). If we assume he goes at this pace for the rest of the series and assume that they’re each about the same length then it’ll take well over 5.5 years to finish everything.
I get that Sylas is trying to be thorough but a shorter recaps and more chapters per week will go a long way into making this read through interesting again.
@17 andrewrm
Your points about Egwene are well-taken, but actually it was Elayne who pinched Rand. Rand assumed it was Egwene and the girls did not disabuse him of that (no pun intended). But in the subsequent Elayne POV it’s clear that she was the one who did actually did it.
@@@@@17. andrewrm
I agree that Egwene does treat Rand in an infantile and bulling manner, but I do believe it was Elayne that did the over the top pinch after Rand pinched both to them. Rand of course thinks it was Egwene, just like when it will be Moraine and Egwene. This is just the start of some of Elayne’s more infantile behavior (letters and Thom)
Edit: (Darn … @@@@@19. fernandan got there first!)
I stand corrected. That being said, Egwene seems pretty damn pleased with both herself and Elayne afterwards; seems like the only reason she didn’t do it herself is that she was beaten to the punch. And, so we know what she thinks of as reasonable retaliation, it’s “a hundred for one”.
“But the complete embracing of the stereotypes of masculinity and femininity as it relates to these two coded forces isn’t. It’s not just that saidin embodies concepts normally assigned to masculinity (fire, roughness, strength) and saidar to femininity (water, delicacy, patience)—the very way that the two genders interact with the One Power is a stereotype. Women must surrender, open themselves up to saidar, a passive act in which they are literally described as being filled. Men must reach out and take what they want, they must be strong-willed and aggressive, and force saidin to their will, like breaking a wild horse.”
I must disagree with your limited interpretation of this stereotype. You seem to be saying that to “surrender” is weakness, that it is a passive act, and because surrendering is associated with the woman here, you by extension imply that women must be passive and weak. I assume that this is an interpretation that has come from your own mind. How interesting that you would associate surrender with women and weakness, and thereby perpetuate the very stereotype you claim to abhor!
Here is another interpretation: To surrender does not take weakness or passiveness. Surrender is an action verb, and requires choice, and a great amount of courage. For an in-world example, take Nynaeve. She is unwilling to surrender to saidar, and is therefore unable to access the source at will. She overcomes this through anger, which could be argued is a very unattractive trait associated with the male portion of your stereotype. Is that really what you want for women, is to make them like men? How much better to not stereotype their strengths into weaknesses, and allow them the greatness that comes because of their choices? You will find as you read that there are few characters more courageous than Egwene and Moiraine. Don’t take their heroism away from them just because you want to perpetuate an incorrect stereotype.
Also, why shouldn’t it be ok for the male half of the source to have qualities associated with men? Why must it be a “stereotype” (with the full negative meaning of that word)? Why isn’t it ok for saidar to have qualities that are associated with the only group that can wield it? While I grant that women are oftentimes treated unfairly in the real world when compared with men (such as not being paid the same salary with equivalent qualifications), that doesn’t mean that EVERY SINGLE DIFFERENCE between a man and a woman is a negative stereotype that must be changed. From an in-world perspective, do we really want the supergirls to have all of the same qualities, strengths, weaknesses and abilities as Rand, Mat and Perrin? Maybe they all need to be gleemen (sorry, gleewomen, or is it gleegenderrneutral), before we as the reader can view them as worthy characters.
Sometimes, in our haste to be equal-in-all-things-at-any-cost, we forget that it is possible, even necessary, to be truly equal and different, just as the two halves of the source are, and together they drive creation. Not a combination to simply stereotype away.
@22 here, here! Well said. I also feel that the word “stereotype” is thrown around far to carelessly in the commentary.
Rand’s somewhat offhanded order here that Tear sell grain to Illian is something that ends up paying off for him… three books from now.
We don’t know at this point what taint madness is like, and I think Sylas would feel at least a little bit relieved if he knew that it is indeed very specific to each person, and that each person touched by taint madness goes mad in a very specific way that’s unique to that individual.
I’m not touching the gender dynamics here with a ten foot pole, but I will point out that Sylas’ viewpoint on the gender dynamics are probably going to prevent him from enjoying one of my very favorite scenes in the entire series — the Cleansing is a whole lot of fun to read, but when you stop to think about the gender issues there (the taint can only be cleansed because Saidar and Saidin physically cannot mix, like oil and water), it takes some of the fun away.
I don’t think we ever actually find out what three questions Moiraine asks inside the red doorframe ter’angreal? My first thought would have been something about her getting saved from Sindhol later on, but based on the language of her letter to Thom that would appear to be knowledge she gained from the rings in Rhuidean rather than an answer from the Aelfinn. You might also think it has something to do with going to Rhuidean, but she later says that that came from a letter she received from… Amys? Bair? She already knows she’s going to marry Thom from Min’s viewing, so it can’t be that. The letter she leaves to Rand at the end of Fires of Heaven clearly states she knows only knows “one more thing that need not concern you” about what happens after — about Thom’s mission to free her from Sindhol — so it has to be something that happens between now and her fight with Lanfear. I really want to know!
As to Rand’s three questions… one was how to survive Tarmon Gaidon; one was how to cleanse the taint; did we ever get any clue as to what the third question he asked was?
@17 “I mean, she’s almost in tears at the pain from the wound in Rand’s side, which he doesn’t even register, but her retaliation her leaves him hobbling?”
That’s also the difference between chronic pain and fresh pain. A chronic pain can almost fade into the background sometimes, until you don’t feel it unless you’re focusing on it. Like if you’re dealing with the chronic pain of a recently pulled tooth, and then you stub your toe. You wouldn’t think that a stubbed toe would be more painful than that tremendous throbbing ache in your mouth, but suddenly it is.
Moderators: A bunch of minor typos this week:
“felxible” -> “flexible”
“anymore than men” -> “any more than men”
“much stronger he is that she or Elayne”; “that” should be “than”
“Andwhile” -> “And while”
@26 – Corrected, thanks!
Now, having satisfied my inner copy editor, I’ll make an actual comment. I had always read the pinch as being both Egwene and Elayne together doing it and it being worse than either individually intended. But now, re-reading it more closely, it’s completely clear from Egwene’s PoV that Elayne definitely did it, and I’m leaning toward Egwene not having done anything and just having been an observer. I don’t believe we ever get a definitive answer on whether Egwene did anything or not (unless someone can find a direct quote).
As for the the saidar/saidin gender issue, it seems to me that the cleanest and sanest way to deal with it is to postulate (as at least one person hinted at above) that at this time in our world’s history, there _is_ gender essentialism and (the DO’s manipulations aside), everyone is either male or female without all the nuances we have in the real world. You can then argue about that world-building choice, but the in-world ramifications are clear.
adjbaker @16:
Although your general point is well-taken, I can think of two counterexamples off of the top of my head, and there may be others.
1. During the Cleansing, when Rand forms the tube of saidar, it ends up working but doesn’t form as he expected.
2. When Semirhage has Rand in the Dominion Band in TGS, she explicitly says that she has trouble remembering the male weave for something she’s forcing Rand to do to Min.
So there are at least a couple indications of people not knowing the proper weaves, and almost certainly others that I don’t recall offhand.
@28. bad_platypus – In my opinion, Rand at the cleansing is an example of saidar working on its own. Rand does not need to know how, it just forms the way it needs and works even though he was thinking of something else.
With the Band, I don’t think both were being used together only Rand’s power so it makes sense she had remember.
I highly disagree with the idea that sci-fi and fantasy have some sort of duty to be forward-looking or to explore any specific sort of themes. That’s not to say that they can’t do those things, but certainly it shouldn’t be considered the duty of sci-fi and fantasy authors to do anything other than write entertaining stories. In fact, the prevalence of stories that try really hard to say something relevant about some political, social or philosophical issue is precisely what puts me off modern sci-fi. It always comes off to me like the author thinks very highly about their ability to say something meaningful when really they’re just rehashing the exact same issues people have been talking about for decades if not millennia, and they’re so preoccupied about having something to say that they forget to write good plots and characters for their stories.
Still enjoying these recaps very much, though there’s a long way to go in the series. I agree that these books can go in very odd directions when it comes to some of the points the author was trying to make about gender, and sometimes I just decided it was best to let those sections slide on by rather than engage with them. The fact that the earliest books are 30 years old makes it easier to do that. It does make me wonder what approach they’re going to try and take in the TV series on these issues.
I think part of the reason Rand later thinks the Aes Sedai are a brain-washing and corrupting group is Egwene. She goes from the nice if haughty girl they all know to being constantly on an ego trip and violently abusive just because she’s just learning to be an Aes Sedai. If that’s not corruption to an outside perspective, I don’t know what is.
great read, thank you![.](//s04.flagcounter.com/mini/Jkzv/bg_FFFFFF/txt_DEDEDE/border_FFFFFF/flags_0/" width="1"/>)
@@@@@31. NIk_the_Heratik – “It does make me wonder what approach they’re going to try and take in the TV series on these issues.”
In my most cynical moments, the series would make this scene a MeToo moment for Egwene and Elayne and during the Dragon’s Peace debate, they would bring up this incident of sexual harassment as a reason he shouldn’t command in the last battle.
So, in today’s society, is there anyway this scene would be shown as Rand pinching the two girls bottoms and would it cause outrage?
@30:
I wasn’t going to comment on it, but I feel similarly. Science Fiction and Fantasy are an excellent vehicle for social commentary, because they remove people at least one step from their own situations, and can allow them to examine their own biases more honestly, from that slight slight remove. I myself have benefited greatly from this fact.
And it’s true that Science Fiction and Fantasy has a long history of providing such social commentary. That however in no way indicates that any work of Science Fiction and Fantasy should be required to be a vehicle for social commentary. They are forms of entertainment, first and foremost. All story attempts to reveal human truth. That is the nature of story. But not all human truth needs to be focused on social commentary, or civil rights, or any other topic as such.
And of course, by its very nature, human truth is human. Which means it is imperfect and not universal across time, culture or society. Running the Wheel of Time through the lens of segments of today’s modern society is an interesting experiment. Leigh certainly did it, and I have no problem with this series, or it’s author, continuing that examination. It can be fascinating!
But let’s not go so far as to say that The Wheel of Time somehow fails to live up to the expectations of Science Fiction and Fantasy because it hews to an old-fashioned understanding of gender. There are no such codified expectations to begin with — and their shouldn’t be. Perhaps it fails to live up to Sylas’ definition of what the genre should be. That could be a fair assessment.
Regarding using both powers together, I always took it as the person doing the weaving used their natural power to make the weave and the other power was kind of inlaid over it.
I think it’s important to remember that for Sylas, this is a first read, and the lack of foreknowledge only gives him partial answers to things that he is greatly vested in, and trying to figure out. It will be interesting to see, how his perspective changes as he reads the series.
Rand’s not angry because Saidin made him so, he’s angry that he can’t do what he wants to with it because he has no control. Like someone with Parkinson’s trying to prevent themselves from shaking (sort of).
Also, the Dragon is always male. Full Stop. If a woman is going to save the world, it happens through Amaterasu (or Amerasu or whatever her Wheel of Time name is). There is no genderqueer savior. Genderqueer does not exist in Wheel of Time. There is one exception later on, but that is spoiler-y (and it’s more like the exception that proves the rule anyway).
These books are decades old. Why would they have any sort of modern gender theory thrown in them? Why would you expect them too? They’re written by a guy who fought in Vietnam. He’s not going to have the exact same perspective on gender as a gay man 30 years later, Sylas. Best to just accept it for what it says and let it go. Don’t try to argue with it: you’ll just get yourself worked up for no reason.
Hell, talking about gender has changed in the last decade, let alone the past two or three. There’s an episode of NCIS where everyone makes fun of Tony DiNozzo for “tonguing a tranny.” You think that would fly today? So just remember that people in the past have different values than we do, and that’s ok.
Mat is ALWAYS the one to fire Chekhov’s gun. He just cannot help himself!
@bad_platypus (#28):
It goes even deeper than that. In the real world, sex is a concept that exists only in lifeforms that reproduce sexually. Even gender essentialism – as I understand the term – means only that people are either male or female. In the Wheel of Time the dichotomy is built into the universe itself. The fundamental power that makes everything happen is divided into male and female halves. Gender essentialism in people arises as an effect of the universal dichotomy.
Another author might have explored what effects this would have on non-human life. In the real world there are some species of fish that change their sex as they age. Many invertebrates are hermaphrodites, and many plants are monoicous. The slime mold species Physarum polycephalum has multiple sex-defining genes that each exist in several versions, so that its gametes exist in several hundred different variants. Perhaps none of that would exist in a world with a universal male/female dichotomy? I think some interesting stories could be written to explore this concept, but that wasn’t Robert Jordan’s focus.
Sylas’ repeated wishing for savior equality suggests that he hasn’t understood the fundamental conflict in this story. Only women can safely channel the One Power. Men must be prevented from channeling at any cost. But on the other hand it’s prophesized that the Dragon, an extremely powerful channeler, will be reborn and save the world – and the Dragon is a man. That’s quite a conundrum for society. Some people think the Dragon must be gentled like every other male channeler, and hope the world will somehow be saved anyway. Others want to control the Dragon to ensure that he fulfills the prophecies. Yet others want to keep him locked up like a closely guarded secret weapon and deliver him to the Last Battle at the right moment. And some prefer to let Rand go free, and just hope he won’t go mad too quickly.
Introducing a Dragoness would change all of that and turn the whole thing into a very different story. The Dragon and the Phoenix could also be a very good story that somebody could write, but that’s not what this story is. I hope Sylas will realize this soon, so he’ll understand why there is no Dragoness.
@30, @35: Wholeheartedly agree, you both articulate something that’s been nagging at me for a while now far better than I ever could. There’s been this increased push lately for stories to intimately reflect the politics of both their creators and audience, and as an aspiring novelist myself, I think it’s very shortsighted, arrogant and something I have no interest in doing myself: I’d far sooner write poetry than pamphlets. Just as I can enjoy a good Cadfael or Father Brown mystery even though I’m an atheist, I don’t require Jordan’s work to explicitly pander to my values in order to be enjoyable. Hell, as both a writer and reader, it’s nice sometimes to get that differing perspective, to see things through a lens you’d never consider in real life.
And it’s especially frustrating when such an emphasis on delivering a message, however sincere and well-intentioned, gets in the way of actual quality storytelling, that if you’re just woke/patriotic/pious/liberal/conservative enough, you can get away with not having to write engaging characters or a well-plotted narrative. (See so much of Marvel Comics’ current output these days). I think Todd in the Shadows said it best: “I can see myself giving a positive review to something I enjoyed but professed beliefs I didn’t agree with, but I cannot imagine myself giving a thumbs-up to a piece of shit whose opinions I supported.” And let’s face it, if the Amelie Wen Zhao debacle taught us anything, it’s that social justice culture can be just as bullying, reactionary, self-righteous and just plain mean-spirited as the things it criticizes.
@38: A very good point. Every story is in some regards rooted in the time and place in which it was written, and it does seem unfair to criticize it for failing to adhere to social changes that occurred long after publishing. To use another example, Babylon 5 gets a lot of crap these days for not being more overt about its LGBT representation, a criticism that ignores this was a show done in the mid-90s when you literally couldn’t do so, and even then, JMS did as much as he could within the restrictions of broadcasting standards at the time. LGBT rights and representation in particular have experienced a sea change over the past 20 years that few people could have anticipated, Jordan included, so calling him out for not being precognitive is an argument in bad faith.
@41:
I wouldn’t go that far. We always recontextualize things. It’s what human beings do. So I think it’s perfectly fair to look back on something and criticize it based on a new understanding. I just don’t think its particularly productive. It’s not using the standards of today while criticizing the work that I find problematic. It’s shaming the people who created it that I find distasteful and, well, useless. And shaming modern consumers for enjoying it for what it is and does well. I don’t think any of the criticisms I’ve read from Sylas go anywhere near that far.
@@@@@ 41: The thing is, for the longest time the main perspective of stories has been that of straight, white, Christian males, in which case “seeing things from a different perspective/lens you’d never consider in real life” is writing stories with minority perspectives, and it makes perfect sense that members of those minorities (including all examples on the LGBT spectrum) would be wanting to create and/or consume stories that express those perspectives. What you call pandering, they call representation, and just because you don’t feel a need for such stories doesn’t mean others don’t. While it isn’t required for a story to appeal to one’s values to be enjoyable, there is still great intrinsic value to stories which express values rarely seen in the mainstream but still worthy of notice, particularly for groups who have rarely (or never) seen their values expressed in fiction. In that case, “pandering” is often the only way to get a differing perspective.
That said, you’re absolutely right that such stories still need to be well-written as stories, and not merely justify their existence due to the values and perspectives they provide–otherwise they might just as well be non-fictional essays and articles. Nor should they be forced on writers or readers; creators should create what appeals to them, the stories they want to tell, and if the audience (or some of it) doesn’t enjoy it, they are free to go elsewhere for their entertainment (so long as they allow the works to exist for and be enjoyed by those who do want them). And you’re also right that it is not fair to judge past creators by the now-outdated values of their times, rather than being ahead of them, even as we still acknowledge the difference and that society has generally become more inclusive and accepting. So I agree with the rest of your points.
Also, I just have to say that the minute I started reading the discussion of whether there can and should be a genderqueer Dragon, I immediately flashed to ISAM’s parody of LOC where Demandred basically had the same theory. Good times, made me laugh! (As for female saviors, well… *looks ahead to Egwene in AMOL*)
I’m not transgender like Sylas. But I think I might be able to understand the dissatisfaction at a story in which people of your own marginalized demographic not only lack explicit representation within the scope of the plot but explicity don’t exist in that universe. Saying the story’s creator “should” have known/done better is unproductive, but it’s not the same as pointing out where a story can be hurtful or exclusionary to some of its consumers, even in ways its creator and many consumers may not have been aware of.
The fact that the only transgender-souled individual in the books was created specifically and deliberately by the Dark One is not the best example of representation, I suppose… though barring Word of Jordan/Sanderson on the subject, it doesn’t necessarily preclude such happening naturally. Then again, I have vague inkling in my head that such Word may exist, but i’m too lazy to seek it out just now.
An interesting point on the topic that I made note of on my latest read-through though is that as souls do start getting transmigrated around all willy-nilly there are zero instances of deadnaming or misgendering… with the one notable exception of Rand getting Lews Therin-ed all the time, and that’s arguably more of a multiple-personality scenario. Occasional private theorizing or reminiscence about who someone used to be pre-transition when you do have a Forsaken observer’s POV, but once someone’s in a new body with a new name, even those who know for sure about prior identities still exclusively use the new names and pronouns, and even the private thoughts to the contrary are rare.
And this is all happening and being discussed pretty much exclusively among the Forsaken, meaning all and only characters raised in the utopian Age of Legends… which on a more conservative hand, you might expect would give any of them motivation to cling to original identities of the members of their clique, who are after all literally the only people in the world any of them have known for more than the year or so since release from the Bore. Instead they take the transitions as a matter of course. Which might have more to do with them understanding the situation as machinations of the dark god to whom they are pledged… but I think there’s viable headcanon to those who want it that AoL society in general accepted such transitioning as no big deal, separate from the canonically Evil mechanism to soul migration.
@44 – I certainly see how it can feel that way. I wasn’t trying to be dismissive in that sense. I’m not sure if it’s a ‘useful’ suggestion or not, but as it’s also kind of a core driver of not only the worldbuilding but in some ways the general conflict, it’s going to be a feature.
I’m honestly kind of interested to see how Halima is receieved – to me it hasn’t really aged well, and I highly doubt it’s the kind of representation Sylas would actually find satisfying, although I suppose it shows that in a way, mismatches between physical sex and the gender of the soul ARE possible…but apparently only through the Dark One’s machinations. It of course reveals some interesting things about the cosmology (such as how tightly the soul/gender/the half of Power that is used) but it’s one of those ‘unfortunate implications’ things.
If I recall, on one of the previous threads, there was a lot of debate on the Dark One/True Power is bigender, or agender, which to me are distinct things.
Is it possible to write something that doesn’t overlook/ignore/dismiss a minority group of some kind?
No, it’s not, Austin. For example my people, Jews, tend to be invisible in most fiction. When we aren’t written out of existence.
@40 Very insightful observations.
I’ve mentioned this previously, but every time gender/sexuality issues arise, I think of Asimov’s THE GODS THEMSELVES, in which he attempts a story involving a REALLY alien race which has FIVE sexes, all of whom (IIRC) must interact for reproduction!
And then there is Matthew Ridley’s popular biological tome THE RED QUEEN’S RACE, in which he recounts biologists’ attempts to understand WHY sex exists – concluding (somewhat tenuously) that the continual exchanging of genetic material as new individuals are produced is natural selection’s way of allowing sexual species to “stay ahead of” the constantly evolving pathogens that are constantly attacking us. it’s a good read.
Addendum to #49:
Apparently my memory is imperfect. Ridley’s book is titled THE RED QUEEN: SEX AND THE EVOLUTION OF HUMAN NATURE.
Bacteria exchange genetic material, too, even across species. Their exchange is even faster than the slow generations of long-lived sexually reproducing species who usually only mix their genes with one partner per child, while bacteria can personally profit from genes they get from multiple sources. That explanation of sex only made sense before plasmid exchanges were discovered.
@@@@@51. birgit
I’m not sure more efficient bacterial sexual reproduction negates the advantage of human sexual reproduction. Maybe I will only mix my genes with one partner, but if I have two children, each of them will (hopefully) mix their genes with two different partners. So the mixing still happens, at one generation’s distance, assuming you have more than one child.
So when the bubonic plague wipes me out along with 1/3 of mankind, perhaps 1 or 2 of my 4 grandchildren will survive. And the advantages also exist vis-a-vis much-slower adapting creatures, not just bacteria, such as cats with raspy tongues managing better against more efficient ticks.
As I understand it, sexual reproduction allows a beneficial mutation from individual X to spread throughout the population without being bound to all the disadvantageous genes which individual X happened to possess. In addition, it allows you to merge beneficial mutations from different sources. Thus, a hundred generations hence, you’d have an individual with beneficial mutations X, Y, and Z, which might give him an enormous advantage, allowing the species to survive in new ways. Without sexual reproduction, you’d have to wait for X, Y, and Z to spontaneously mutate in a direct line of descendants, which is much less likely. This is true even if the bacteria in his gut are performing the same process a thousand times faster.
No, with plasmid exchange you don’t have to wait for mutation, you just have to meet another bacterium that has the genes you want. If three bacteria with three different positive properties meet, they can all get all of them without waiting for future generations.
For an old but hilarious fictional evocation of the advantages of sexual vs. asexual reproduction, check out Isaac Asimov’s short story “What Is This Thing Called Love?” It appeared around 1950 (?) and is not available on the internet, but it can be found in his 1969 collection _Nightfall and Other Stories_.
It’s a takeoff on a then-popular sf storyline involving lustful aliens and captive Earth-maidens with heaving bosoms, only the aliens here are a pair of asexual researchers trying to figure out how Earthlings reproduce. The last 3 paragraphs were rewritten to very satisfying effect by Asimov’s editor, a woman who was surely Harriet M’s equal at least.
Human beings and other mammals are complex organisms. Therefore not bacteria.
As a former microbiologist I take exception to microbes not being considered complex ;) They do not have organelles, but they do some pretty cool and complex stuff :)